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    Game Of Thrones: The Troubles with Jaime (S4E4): Link to this post

    I will begin by saying I am only a GOT TV Show watcher.
    I have very conflicted feelings with regards to Jaime's character now.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Actions on the TV Show show conflicting actions*:

    S3E7: Jaime talks Locke out of raping Brienne. Loses
    a hand in the process and even says rape is bad.
    S4E3: Jaime rapes Cersei in the Sept in front of their dead son King Joffrey.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Words on the TV Show say the scene was rape*:

    Jaime: How are you?
    Cersei: I'm all right.
    Jaime: You are. You will be. I'll see to that.
    (Doors to Sept echo shut.)
    Cersei: It was Tyrion. He killed him. He told me he would.
    "A day will come when you think you are safe and
    happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth."
    That's what he said to me. You saw it.
    You saw Joff point at him just before he—
    Jaime: I don't know what I saw.
    Cersei: Avenge him. Avenge our son. Kill Tyrion.
    Jaime: Tyrion's my brother. Our brother.
    There'll be a trial. We'll get to the truth of what happened.
    Cersei: I don't want a trial. He'll squirm his way to freedom given the chance.
    I want him dead. (Crying) Please, Jaime.
    You have to. He was our son. Our baby boy. (She kisses him.)
    Jaime: (Gasps) You're a hateful woman.
    Why have the gods made me love a hateful woman?
    Cersei: Jaime, not here, please. Please. - (fabric rips) - Stop it. - Stop it. Stop.
    No. Stop it. Stop. Stop. - Stop. It's not right. - (Grunts) It's not right. It's not right.
    Jaime: I don't care.
    Cersei: (Crying) - Don't.
    Jaime: I don't care.
    Cersei: Don't. Jaime, don't.
    Jaime: I don't care.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *More words act like nothing happened*:

    Jaime's scenes in S4E4 seem to overlook
    that he did anything wrong to Cersei. As other commenters have pointed out Cersei was
    very short with him in the one scene she had with
    Jaime, however there's no inference in her tone that references the incident at the Sept at all:

    Jaime: You sent for me, Your Grace?
    Cersei: Your Grace. How formal of you. How many
    Kingsguards are posted outside Tommen's door?
    Jaime: Ser Boros is on duty tonight. Tomorrow I believe--
    Cersei: So one? You have one man guarding the future king?
    Jaime: I promise you Tommen's safe. We're protecting him.
    Cersei: The way you protected Joffrey? Why did
    Catelyn Stark set you free?
    Jaime: What?
    Cersei: I've been wondering for months. Ever since
    that great cow brought you back to the capital.
    Why did she set you free?
    Jaime: You know why. She'd hoped I'd send her daughters back to her.
    Cersei: She hoped or did you promise?
    Jaime: I swore by all the gods that if her daughters
    were alive, I'd return them to her.
    Cersei: So you made a sacred vow to the enemy.
    Jaime: I wanted to get back to you.
    Should I have told her to f$ck off?
    Cersei: You didn't mean it, then? You have no loyalty to Catelyn Stark?
    Jaime: Catelyn Stark's dead.
    Cersei: So if I told you to leave the capital right now
    and find Sansa, if I told you to find that murderous
    little bitch and bring me her head, would you do it?
    I know you went to see Tyrion. That creature who murdered our son.
    Jaime: I had to see him. I had to know for myself.
    Cersei: And?
    Jaime: He didn't do it, Cersei.
    Cersei: You've always pitied him. Our poor little brother. Abused by the world.
    Despised by his father and sister. He'd kill us all if he
    could. I want four men at Tommen's door day and
    night. That will be all, Lord Commander.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Cast and Crew give conflicting statements*:

    The Director: It was supposed to be consensual.
    http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-uncle-deadly

    The Writers: It was supposed to be rape.
    Benioff: “You see that Cersei is resisting this. She’s saying no, and he’s forcing himself on her.”
    http://www.nerdist.com/2014/04/lets-talk-about-that-cerseijaime-scene-from-game-of-thrones/
    (This article is good because it lists all of these sources I have listed here.)

    The Actors:

    Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, the actor who plays Jaime, told the Daily Beast: “There are moments where [Cersei]
    gives in, and moments where she pushes him away.
    But it’s not pretty.” When asked if Cersei was raped, he answered, “Yes and no.”
    (Talk about being non committal and diplomatic to the show creators huh?)
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/20/game-of-thrones-most-wtf-sex-scene-nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-jaime-lannister-s-darkest-hour.html

    Lena Headey comments on how she thought the shoot went:

    "There's lust and desperation...there was this need,"
    Headey says, describing the character's motivations.
    "It wasn't right and yet it felt great and it played
    out the way it did." She added, "And I was really
    happy with it."
    http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2014/04/lena-headey-talks-game-of-thrones-rape-scene-it-wasnt-right-but/

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *There’s the book readers pointing out what the source material says*:

    The act between Jaime and Cersei was meant to be
    consensual. (This is briefly mentioned here for us to
    make points on what is happening on the TV Show.)
    http://time.com/71584/george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-controversy-rape/

    It has also been relayed by Roberto and Dave here at
    the TV Critic that the book has different circumstances
    surrounding it that makes the scene version in the
    book work better than what we saw in the TV Show:
    http://www.thetvcritic.org/reviews/dramas/game-of-thrones/season-4/oathkeeper/

    This makes the source material irrelevant to me in terms of what happened on the TV Show.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *There’s the definition of what we understand rape is*:

    I agree with the articles I have read on this scene.

    Rape has only one definition it’s non-consensual sex (whether it’s with your significant other or not.)

    It cannot be consensual at the end of a
    non-consensual act as the members of the cast of
    Game of Thrones are saying.

    It either is rape or it isn't. It's not both.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Finally, there’s how we are left to feel and what we can conclude from the TV show*:

    So now we (the viewers) are left conflicted ourselves
    with trying to interpret what they (the makers of Game of Thrones) are saying about:

    • What was going on in that scene;
    • Rape;
    • Consensual Sex (and it's various forms including role playing violent sex and sex in strange places
    and near corpses);
    • How Jaime feels about sex and Cersei and what he did;
    • How Cersei feels about Jaime and what he did; and
    • How that scene puts into context the things that lie ahead.

    After that fact and with the subsequent scene with Cersei, it’s hard for me to conclude:

    • The dynamics of the Cersei/Jaime relationship;
    • What Cersei feels;
    • What Jaime feels;
    • What actions he will truly do to and for others; and
    • What actions he will do for himself.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Unknown*:

    Is Jaime conflicted about what he did to Cersei in the Sept?
    Is Jaime struggling with helping Tyrion or following Cersei’s orders?
    Does he compartmentalize his feelings about
    different things so he doesn’t get conflicted?

    Are we just misinterpreting an ‘unholy
    consensual sex’ for a deliberate act of rape, which is
    why there is a black vagueness over where Jaime's
    feelings lie about Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin and his own
    future?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Speculation*:

    When he says farewell to Brienne he does so with a lot of finality. Maybe he is expecting:

    • He will be killed by Cersei in some way; or
    • Flee himself in the future (never to be seen again); or
    • Brienne will find Sansa and guard her somewhere
    safe unbeknownst to anyone for the rest of her days.

    Interesting to note he instructs Brienne to find Sansa
    and take her some place safe. He doesn't say to
    contact him once she has done that.

    His firm farewell makes it appear he has elected to
    trying to help Tyrion over Cersei. That action says
    nothing about his love for Cersei, however it does say
    something about his loyalty to the Queen doesn't it?
    It also says something about upholding a sacred
    vow, however this has now been transferred to Brienne.

    Am I supposed to believe that Jaime raped Cersei to
    show his passion for her, hatred for her decision
    about Tyrion (but he will obey it) or he's conflicted
    by her desires? Sorry that's all a tall order for me.

    If the scene is supposed to arbitrarily depict their
    kinky sexual life style (though twisted) it simply
    sticks out like a sore thumb and means nothing to
    the story.

    If it's to hurt Cersei and it's rape, then it appears to have made her only slightly angry.

    If the feeling between them is mutual and Cersei's
    forcing him to rape her there, meaning if you want
    me you have to have me this way (in front of my
    dead son) then that didn't come across that way.
    Jaime wasn't the one saying no; it was Cersei.

    Is Jaime now void of all honor and ability to have redemption?

    For now I am left having to 'pretend' the rape scene didn't happen (like the show runners) to make the
    Jaime/Cersei story (as it's being revealed) work for me. There have not been any notable consequences due to those actions either making the act to be 'horribly gratuitous'.

    What are your thoughts about Jaime?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Game of Thrones: Threads at the TV Critic
    http://www.thetvcritic.org/forums/other-tv-shows/show/180
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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